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He Chunyan: Professor Tripathi, we know that you are visiting professor of Wuhan University. So what do you teach? 

何春燕：特里帕蒂教授，我們了解到您是武漢大學(xué)的訪問教授，您教授什么專業(yè)呢？

Prof Tripathi: I am teaching philosophy of grammar. 

特里帕蒂教授：我教授語法哲學(xué)。

He Chunyan: Philosophy of grammar? 

何春燕：語法哲學(xué)？

Prof Tripathi: Yes, because I specialize in philosophy of grammar and modern linguistics, along with poetics in Sanskrit . So they have quite department of philosophy in Wuhan University. I am here to help them with research project, and teaching philosophy of grammar . There is a text in Sanskrit on philosophy of grammar, known as a Granthapathas text. The Granthapathas text is a very very basic text for the entry into the difficult Sanskrit philosophy of grammar. So this time I am teaching that text. 

特里帕蒂教授：是的，我專門研究語法哲學(xué)和現(xiàn)代語言學(xué)，以及梵語詩學(xué)。武漢大學(xué)有哲學(xué)系，我來這里幫助他們做研究項(xiàng)目，并教授語法哲學(xué)。語法哲學(xué)中有一個(gè)課題是梵文課題Granthapathas，Granthapathas課題是學(xué)習(xí)梵文語法哲學(xué)的入門，這段時(shí)間我在講授這個(gè)課題。

He Chunyan: The text. I am very curious. How many students will attend your class? 

何春燕：我對這個(gè)課題很好奇，有多少學(xué)生來上您的課呢？

Prof Tripathi: There are not many, I am afraid. But then I also give a few lectures to the general students. In those general lectures there are more students maybe around 50, or at times 30, so it depends. 

特里帕蒂教授：恐怕不是很多。但是我會(huì)給非本專業(yè)的學(xué)生作一些講座。講座學(xué)生會(huì)多些，大約50個(gè)人，有時(shí)是30來個(gè)人參加，看情況。

He Chunyan: I wish I were in Wuhan University so that I could attend your lecture. 

何春燕：要是我在武漢大學(xué)的話，就可以來參加您的講座了。

Prof Tripathi: Never mind. You are always welcome when you are free. 

特里帕蒂教授：沒關(guān)系，非常歡迎您來，只要您有空。

He Chunyan: We all know that you were the first lady to hold the department of Sanskrit in Delhi University. We also know that you did tremendous work. So my question is how you make yourself so successful, because we know it's not very easy for a lady, especially in India to make that. 

何春燕：我們都知道，您是德里大學(xué)梵語系第一位女系主任，您做了大量的工作。我想問的是，您如何讓自己這么成功的？因?yàn)檫@對于女性，尤其是印度的女性來說，并不容易。

Prof Tripathi: Well, that is a slightly difficult question to answer, difficult not because I have faced difficulties, and it's a little bit a problem for me to explain them, but difficult because I have never thought this sort of work as being difficult. I take it in my stride. I just go on to my work and... 

特里帕蒂教授：這個(gè)問題對我來說有那么一點(diǎn)難回答。難回答不是因?yàn)槲矣龅嚼щy，而是要解釋清楚這一點(diǎn)有些困難，因?yàn)槲覐奈匆曔@樣的工作為困難。我只是從容應(yīng)對，繼續(xù)做我的工作……

He Chunyan: You just make your every effort to do something very well? 

何春燕：您只是盡全力把事情做好？

Prof Tripathi: Yes. It comes to me naturally. 

特里帕蒂教授：是的，這對我來說是自然而然的。

He Chunyan: It's a natural thing for you to make the department. 

何春燕：把哲學(xué)系做好對你來說是很自然的事情。

Prof Tripathi: So basically my approach towards a situation is do the best that you can for the institution to which you belong. The responsibility given to you should be born with all the diligence and all the commitment. Once you have that philosophy behind you, you just go out and do your best and try to overcome all the obstacles that come in. And let me assure you there are obstacles got lured if you want to work. 

特里帕蒂教授：所以對我來說最基本的就是為我所在的院校盡心盡力。你承擔(dān)的使命需要你勤奮、忠誠，一旦有了這樣的生活信條來做支撐，你只需放手去做到最好，努力克服所有遇到的困難。而且只要你想工作，那些困難障礙都會(huì)自動(dòng)解除。

He Chunyan: So just do it and ignore the other things. 

何春燕：所以只管放手去做。

Prof Tripathi: So why I ever have the department I thought that the department needs to be re-structured in a way in which it could be relevant to the modern times, because if you don't re-structure yourself, if you don't develop yourself, you will be completely downtrend over a period of time. And as it is, Sanskrit is very relevant to it, but there are very few people realize the relevance of the language. 

特里帕蒂教授：所以我進(jìn)入梵語系時(shí)就想，梵語系需要來一次重組以便與時(shí)俱進(jìn)。因?yàn)槿绻恢亟M、不發(fā)展，過一段時(shí)間后，就會(huì)徹底走下坡路。這樣來看，梵語非常重要，但很少有人意識到語言的重要性。

He Chunyan: I don't know why I need to study Sanskrit. 

何春燕：人們不明白我們?yōu)槭裁葱枰獙W(xué)習(xí)梵語。

Prof Tripathi: Yes, but you have to remember that Sanskrit is not just a language. Sanskrit contains the knowledge base for more than past 5,000 years in the country. So if you want to have an understanding of the history, the sociology, the knowledge base, you have to learn Sanskrit. So not learning Sanskrit would lead to not knowing India, and if you have to learn Indian correctly, and in a proper prospective, Sanskrit is the only tool that can get you there. 

特里帕蒂教授：是的，但是你要記得梵語不僅僅是一門語言。梵語包含了這個(gè)國家五千多年的知識庫。如果你想要理解歷史、社會(huì)學(xué)和知識庫，你必須要學(xué)梵語。所以說，不學(xué)習(xí)梵語無法了解印度。如果你想以正確的視角來了解印度，梵語是幫你實(shí)現(xiàn)目標(biāo)的不二工具。

He Chunyan: You know our chairman Mr. Pan, he knows Sanskrit. 

何春燕：您知道的，我們的論壇主席潘麟先生他懂梵語。

Prof Tripathi: Yes. I understand he has been a student in Delhi University. Yesterday somebody gave me. Oh it was Celine who gave me the information and she told me that Mr. Pan had been there as a student, and he was a student of Sarao, Sarao is a good friend of mine. I was very happy to know that, and obviously he must have learned a bit of Sanskrit and a little bit of Pali too. That he was studying Buddhism means learning a little bit of Pali. Sanskrit becomes insight of Pali, if you are learning Pali, and also learned a little bit of Sanskrit. Sanskrit is important to understand the litera of the country. 

潘麟先生與德里大學(xué)佛學(xué)研究系主任Karam Tej Singh Sarao教授

特里帕蒂教授：是的，我知道他曾經(jīng)在德里大學(xué)讀書，昨天Celine（李征）告訴我潘麟先生曾經(jīng)在印度讀書，是Sarao教授的學(xué)生。Sarao教授是我的好朋友，我聽到這個(gè)消息很開心。很顯然，潘麟先生一定學(xué)習(xí)了一些梵語和一些巴利語，因?yàn)樗芯糠饘W(xué)就要學(xué)習(xí)巴利語。如果你學(xué)習(xí)巴利語，也就學(xué)習(xí)一點(diǎn)兒梵語。梵語是了解這個(gè)國家的一個(gè)重要通道。

Prof Tripathi: Sanskrit is important to understand all the things that are contained in the knowledge system of the country and it is quite erroneous to believe that India has only got philosophic texts, and India has only got literary texts, India has got scientific texts, and India has got medical texts. And when I say science, I mean across the boarder. You name anything, physics, chemistry, biology, whatever, mathematics, hominid and there are texts of elaboration. But all those texts are in Sanskrit. Therefore in order to understand the development of knowledge systems in Indian and all that India has contributed to the world in different knowledge systems, Sanskrit is the only base that can be tapped. So learning Sanskrit is like the tool to opening a door to a wonderful world. 

特里帕蒂教授：梵語對于理解這個(gè)國家知識體系中的所有事情都非常重要，且“認(rèn)為印度只有哲學(xué)作品”這一觀點(diǎn)是不正確的，印度也有文學(xué)、科學(xué)和醫(yī)學(xué)。當(dāng)我說科學(xué)的時(shí)候，我是指廣義的全面的。你可以說出很多來，物理學(xué)、化學(xué)、生物學(xué)、數(shù)學(xué)、人類學(xué)等。但這些作品都是梵語寫成的，所以要了解印度的知識體系的發(fā)展以及它在不同的知識體系中對世界的貢獻(xiàn)，梵語是唯一可以發(fā)掘的源泉。所以梵語就像是打開通往美好世界這扇門的工具。

He Chunyan: So I believe you have already seen the wonderful world. Yesterday you gave us the lecture about Yoga, so now we know the way to negotiating life and stress is Yoga. But the question is, from me, is how, how can we do the Yoga to balance our life? 

何春燕：所以我相信您已經(jīng)看到了這個(gè)美好的世界。昨天您給我們作了關(guān)于瑜伽的演講，那么現(xiàn)在我們知道生活與壓力的調(diào)和之道是瑜伽。但是問題是，對我來說，我們怎樣讓瑜伽來平衡生活？

Prof Tripathi: You see in the Indian system there is a way, upward climbing, according to the ability of the person. So there is not one cure for all. 

特里帕蒂教授：你看在印度體系中，有一種漸進(jìn)的方法，這根據(jù)個(gè)人的能力。沒有一個(gè)藥方是包治百病。

He Chunyan: No one cure for all. 

何春燕：沒有藥方包治百病。

Prof Tripathi: No. In Indian system there is no one prescription for the all. There are individual prescriptions according to the ability of the person who is going to undertake the journey. 

特里帕蒂教授：沒有，在印度的體系中沒有一個(gè)藥方可以包治百病。踏上修行之路的人，根器各有差別，藥方各有不同。

He chun yan: So how can we tell the ability? 

特里帕蒂教授：我們怎么來分辨根器呢？

Prof Tripathi: That is for the guru to decide. What is the ability of the person. The ability depends on the physical ability, the mental ability, the emotional ability and also the spiritual ability. Once all these things are taken into consideration, then the path of discovery is initiated for the person concerned. But of course this is a slightly difficult to we are doing things, because these days people don’t have that much of time, and people don’t have that sort of guru sider. So there is a shortage of guru of that calibre. The things of all the time, they are able to do that. In modern age there are some people but very few. 

特里帕蒂教授：根器如何這是由上師來判定的。根器取決于身體能力、心理能力、情感能力和精神能力。綜合考量這些因素后，人們就要開始探索之旅了。但是這對我們來說有點(diǎn)困難，因?yàn)楝F(xiàn)在人們沒有那么多時(shí)間，人們身邊也找不到這種上師了，缺少這種優(yōu)秀品質(zhì)的上師。這些事情優(yōu)秀的上師可以做到，當(dāng)代有一些，但是太少了。

Prof Tripathi: So I was looking at Yoga from the point of view of a common man. A man who is affiliated with sorrow, a man who is affiliated with consumerism, a man who is affiliated with materialism, a man who is... because these are the qualities of a modern man. You name it. You have got consumerism, you have materialism, you have got self-centered view of life. So all these things bring sorrow in life. 

特里帕蒂教授：所以我從普通人的視角來看待瑜伽，從一個(gè)充滿悲傷的人，一個(gè)滿懷消費(fèi)主義、物質(zhì)主義的人的角度來看瑜伽，因?yàn)檫@就是現(xiàn)代人的品性。你還可以說出好多，不一而足。你滿懷消費(fèi)主義、物質(zhì)主義，你的生活中以自我為中心，所有這些都會(huì)帶來生活的傷痛。

Prof Tripathi: You have to have basically a sense of satisfaction which will lead to happiness. That isn't there in modern life in spite of all the progress, all the money that you have . That's why people are hungering of the money, they are running after the money, but they are not happy. And there are people who are just unhappy people. So I was looking at how Yoga can help the general populations to achieve the good of living if not a very happy, a very quiet and satisfied life. If you look at Yoga, there are each steps described to on the path of salvation and those each steps are called yama, niyama, asana, pranayama. Of these the most popular is pranayama. But it begins with yama. niyama, asana, pranayama, pratyahara, dharan, dhyana, samadhi. So these are the eight steps. 

特里帕蒂教授：你必須要知足常樂，這樣才會(huì)擁有幸福。盡管現(xiàn)代生活有很大的進(jìn)步，擁有了財(cái)富，但現(xiàn)代人并不快樂。這就是為什么人們渴望金錢，追逐金錢，但卻不快樂。還有一種人，他就是不快樂。所以我就看瑜伽如何幫助普通大眾過上好的生活，即使不是非常快樂、非常安寧和滿意。你看瑜伽，在救贖的道路上，瑜伽對每一個(gè)步驟都有描述，即“正行、精進(jìn)、調(diào)身、調(diào)息……其中最流行的是調(diào)息。但這一切都從正行開始。正行、精進(jìn)、調(diào)身、調(diào)息、（控）制感（官）、專注（冥想）、禪定、三摩地，這就是八個(gè)步驟（八支瑜伽）。

Prof Tripathi: Once you reach the stage of samadhi, then you are enlightened. But before that there is a process of purification, purification of the mind, purification of the body, purification of your breath because all these things put together constitute your life. Your mind is the biggest enemy you can have. It's a very good friend but it's also an enemy. Bragavad gita says that the mind controls you totally, therefore you have first to win over your mind. So that is you control over yourself. So yoga prescribes yama and niyama, the first two steps lead to control over your mind. Yama and niyama are not something esoteric. Yama and niyama means, niyama is following the rules. You have it and give it to life. You should have rules in your life which you should follow. Yama means hardness trained, not hungering of everything. I want more money, more money, and more money. I want beautiful women. I want beautiful men, more and more and more. I want more raises, I want more cars... 

特里帕蒂教授：當(dāng)你到達(dá)三摩地時(shí)，你就開悟了。但在這之前是一個(gè)凈化的過程，凈化意識，凈化身體，凈化你的呼吸，因?yàn)樗羞@些共同構(gòu)成你的生命。你的意識是你最大的敵人，它可以是一個(gè)好友，但也可以是敵人。《薄伽梵歌》寫到：“思想意識完全控制你的一切，所以你首先要戰(zhàn)勝的是你的意識，也就是你首先要戰(zhàn)勝自己?！?/span>對此，瑜伽開出的藥方是正行和精進(jìn)，首先從這兩步控制你的意識。正行和精進(jìn)并不神秘，精進(jìn)的意思是遵守規(guī)則，你遵循規(guī)則，并在生活中實(shí)踐，在你的生活中應(yīng)該有需要遵守的規(guī)則。正行（持戒）指的是艱苦的訓(xùn)練，無欲無求。我想要有很多很多的錢，我想要美女，想要俊男，我想要加薪，買汽車……

He Chunyan: There is no end. 

何春燕：欲望沒有盡頭。

Prof Tripathi: There is no end to it. Therefore yama means restricting your mind, and hungering of the pleasures. And how do we it is, and if I have got, I gave a very practical example. So if I have saris, this is the saris. I have got 5 saris. that is enough for me. Why should I want to wear a new saris each time I go out? That is hungering of things. You see, you should feel satisfied with what you have and what is necessary. There is difference between necessity and opulence. Necessity should be fulfilled, but opulence leads to dissatisfaction. Because you can never be satisfied, today you can have 100 saris, tomorrow you need 200 saris. So it is just go on. Yama means controlling your mind and niyama means following rules. So these two tools you can start on the path which would ultimately lead to having a control of the mind which does not run after the senses. Eyes are running after the beauty, ears are running after nice songs, so on and so forth. So the sense organs are always running something of lured. Once you control your mind, these stop running after this. So the first is yama, the second is niyama following the rules in life. You get up at a particular time, get up at five o'clock or six o'clock in the morning. Have a rule, I get up and do this and do that. So having a rule-based life leads to discipline. And discipline is very necessary in life to make you satisfied and make you peaceful. If you are not disciplined, then you can not do it in your life. So the first two steps lead to a control over your mind. Then there is the body to be controlled. Because if you have an unhealthy body, you can't spiritually evolve. 

特里帕蒂教授：欲望是沒有盡頭的。所以正行指的是控制你的意識，控制對欲望的渴求。我們?nèi)绾巫龅侥?，讓我舉一個(gè)非常實(shí)際的例子。假如我有了5套紗麗（印度婦女的一種傳統(tǒng)服裝），這對我來說就足夠了。為什么我每次出門想要穿一套新的紗麗呢？這就是對物質(zhì)的渴求。你看，你應(yīng)該對你所擁有的必需品有一種滿足感，這就是必需品與奢侈品二者之間的差別。必需品是應(yīng)該擁有的，但奢侈品會(huì)導(dǎo)致不滿足，你永遠(yuǎn)都不會(huì)滿足。今天你有100套紗麗，明天你想擁有200套紗麗，無休無止。正行（持戒）的意思是控制你的意識，精進(jìn)指的是遵守規(guī)則。所以說，當(dāng)你開始走上最終能控制自己意識的旅途的時(shí)候，正行（持戒）和精進(jìn)就是你的兩種工具，使你的意識不再受感官的控制。眼睛追逐著美色，耳朵沉迷于美妙的音樂，如此等等皆是受感官的控制。一旦你控制了自己的意識，你將不再受感官所影響。所以首先是正行，然后是精進(jìn)，即遵守生活法則。你保持規(guī)律的作息，每天早上5點(diǎn)鐘，或是6點(diǎn)鐘起床，起床后有規(guī)律地安排生活。因此，有規(guī)律的生活會(huì)引向自律，自律會(huì)給生活帶來滿足與安寧。如果做不到自律，也就沒辦法談滿足與安寧。所以說，前兩個(gè)步驟就是控制你的意識，接下來就是控制你的身體。因?yàn)槿绻麤]有健康的身體，就不可能獲得精神成長。

He Chunyan: Yeah I fully agree with that. 

何春燕：是的，我完全同意。

Prof Tripathi: So you have to have a healthy body and for the healthy body, the prescription is asana. All those exercises, the postures which rejuvenate your body. So you have to have those postures to rejuvenate your body. Once you have talked about your body, then of course, your breath. Because breath is controlling factor of life. Man is alive only as long as she or he breathes. The moment you stop breathing, you are dead. So control over your breath is very necessary in order to be able to control your life system. And therefore you have got pranayama. So you see the first four steps I have found are prescribed which can be followed by each and every individual in order to be able to control his or her life. Once you control your life, that would lead to peace, that would lead to peace of mind. That would lead to peace of heart. That would also help you lead to a peaceful life, not agitate your life. You want get hungered over everything, you want to start and jumping with joy over nothing. So you have to have peace in mind. Once you have peace in mind, it leads to compassion. And in order to have a progressive society, compassionate citizens are required. You should not only fulfill yourself, you should fulfill your fellow beings. You should also be able to think about your fellow beings. Not be self-centered, the problem of the modern society, as I said, everybody is busy looking at their mobile phones. You go into a place, nobody looks at anybody else. Nobody sees whether you are five feet tall or you are six feet tall, whatever. They would not even want to know who you are. I don't know whether you have lived in a time when there were no mobile phones. Because I have lived in those times and there were no mobile phones, and in a public place you would meet people, you would greet people, you would talk to people. And you will do sort of total treasures. You would share, you would enjoy and... 

特里帕蒂教授：所以你必須有一個(gè)健康的身體，針對健康的身體的處方是調(diào)身（體式）。所有的練習(xí)、體式都會(huì)讓你的身體恢復(fù)活力，你必須通過體式來讓你的身體恢復(fù)。當(dāng)你談到身體的時(shí)候，當(dāng)然包括呼吸。因?yàn)楹粑巧幕疽刂?，人活著就必須得呼吸，呼吸停止的那一剎那就是死亡來臨的時(shí)候。所以說要調(diào)理你的生命系統(tǒng)，調(diào)控你的呼吸是非常必要的，因此接下來就是調(diào)息。前四個(gè)我列出來的步驟是個(gè)體為了掌控他或她的生活而可以使用的藥方。當(dāng)你能控制你的生活，就會(huì)帶來和平，帶來意識的寧靜，心靈的安寧。這也有助于你生活寧靜，而不是動(dòng)蕩不安。你渴望一切，想一無所求地重新開始，你必須有清凈的意識。當(dāng)你的意識清凈，你就擁有了慈悲心。要想社會(huì)進(jìn)步，人們擁有慈悲心是必需的。你不應(yīng)該僅僅是自我實(shí)現(xiàn)，你還應(yīng)該為他人著想；你不再以自我為中心，正如我所說，現(xiàn)代社會(huì)的問題就是所有人低頭看著自己的手機(jī)。你走進(jìn)一個(gè)地方，沒有人關(guān)心對方，沒有人管你是五英尺高還是六英尺高，他們甚至不想知道你是誰。我不知道，你是否曾在一個(gè)沒有手機(jī)的時(shí)代生活過。因?yàn)?，我曾?jīng)在沒有手機(jī)的時(shí)代生活過。那時(shí)，在公共場合，當(dāng)你遇見人的時(shí)候，你會(huì)與他們打招呼，與之交談，你會(huì)做一些真正有意思的事，并與他們分享……

He Chunyan: So that's why you would like to talk to me, right? So, professor Tripathi, because we don't have too much time, so I have to close this conversation which I love very much. And actually at the end I would like to ask you to do me a favor, because you know we all know that Sanskrit is the most beautiful language in the world. So we would like to ask you to say some beautiful words to the forum with your most beautiful language. Is that ok? 

何春燕：所以這就是你愿意與我開懷暢談的原因，是嗎？特里帕蒂教授，盡管我非常喜歡您的分享，但由于我們有時(shí)間限制，所以不得不結(jié)束這個(gè)訪談了。最后，我想請您幫一個(gè)忙，大家都知道梵語是世界上最美麗的語言，可以請您用最美麗的語言給論壇送上祝福嗎？

Prof Tripathi: Of course. I will recite for you a verse which means, for a human being, his language and his expression is the best thing. 

特里帕蒂教授：當(dāng)然可以，我就為您朗誦一首詩吧。這首詩的意思是，對于人類而言，語言和表達(dá)是世界上最美好的事情。

Prof Tripathi: It means your speech and your language is your best ornament. All the others replenish it, but your language and your speech is the best ornament that can adore you. 

特里帕蒂教授：這首詩的意思是你的話語是你最好的裝飾，其它的都是錦上添花，語言和談吐是裝點(diǎn)你的最好禮物。

He Chunyan: OK, thank you. 

何春燕：好，謝謝您。